I don't know of any official doctrine and don't have my WT CD with me to look it up. Still, I know that this is highly unusual. When I was Df’d I was told directly by the judicial committee that I was to attend only at the KH. With their quick and definite stance they took on this it makes me think that somewhere they were told that DF people could only attend at the KH and not at a house.
My Struggle
JoinedPosts by My Struggle
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DFED PERSON HOME BOOKSTUDY?
by isaacaustin incan a disfellowshipped person attend a bookstudy in one's home?
i was told of an event last night where a dfed person was permitted to attend the bookstudy in one's home.
the rest of those in attendance were shocked.
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Questions about 144,000 and salvation: perseverance and assurance.
by My Struggle inawhile back i was trying to understand how the wtbts understood the salvation of the 144,000. when looking up articles it seemed on the surface to be similar to how many christians view salvation.
the similarities were in the standard christian doctrines of perseverance and assurance.
(i know that jw in general do not have assurance of their salvation, they believe that they cannot have salvation until they make it into paradise.
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My Struggle
Awhile back I was trying to understand how the WTBTS understood the salvation of the 144,000. When looking up articles it seemed on the surface to be similar to how many Christians view salvation. The similarities were in the standard Christian doctrines of perseverance and assurance. (I know that JW in general do not have assurance of their salvation, they believe that they cannot have salvation until they make it into paradise. Further, they do not believe in the doctrine of perseverance until they make it past the 1,000-year reign. After which they would hold that no one could lose their salvation.) However, with the 144,000 it seems that they can be assured that they have salvation. Also, something made it seem like the 144,000 also followed the doctrine of perseverance; they could not lose their salvation and through God they would be able to preserve.
Now with the doctorial change in the ‘generation’, that it is only comprised of the 144,000 and that there are young ones who are replacements for some of the 144,000 who have fallen away losing their salvation. This leads me to believe that either I misunderstood how the WTBTS understood perseverance or that WTBTS has changed that doctrine in order to allow for the doctorial change of the ‘generation.’
Also, am I correct that the 144,000 do in fact have assurance of their salvation?
NOTE: If anyone is unsure of the doctrine of assurance or perseverance then I will flesh it out.
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Would You Be Putting 2+2 together if You Were Still a Witness?
by journey-on init occurred to me that if i were still a believing jehovahs witness, i would be thinking that maybe.just maybe.the watch tower bible & tract society, inc. has gone apostate and is guiding its flock off a cliff.. first..all the corporations that were formed separating everything in the eary 2000s.
what is the real reason for doing that?.
second..their association with the united nations.. third.their changes on major doctrines.. fourth.the pedophile issue and subsequent cover-up.
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My Struggle
To answer the org. post. No, I don't think that I would be putting anything together out of the things you mentioned.
First…..all the corporations that were formed separating everything in the eary 2000’s. Why? What is the REAL reason for doing that?
Second…..their association with the United Nations.
I don't know how I would have become aware of any of these things, other than looking at 'apostate' sites, but your point six would have taken care of me having a chance to figure that out.
Third….their changes on MAJOR doctrines.
Yes...and no. If I had even noticed the change then yes, I would begin to connect the dots. They try so hard to sweep changes under the rug (by not mentioning the old doctrine, and just stating the new one like it is waht they have always taught) that I may not have even noticed it. If I had, the yes this would have been a big concern.
Fourth….the pedophile issue and subsequent cover-up. (Not like Jehovah at all to let this happen!)
LIES.....ALL LIES BY SATAN. He never stops in trying to damage the Truth....At least that is the way I would have looked at it.
Sixth….the constant harping about apostates!
Seventh….The Real Estate profits and the Construction/Reconstruction "business" and all the stuff involving ownership in Rand Cam.
Would have agreed about the apostates, why would I want to listen to people that are trying to harm the Truth. So, I would have never know about point seven.
O My God I wish I could have know you sooner, My God...I was gullible.
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Would You Be Putting 2+2 together if You Were Still a Witness?
by journey-on init occurred to me that if i were still a believing jehovahs witness, i would be thinking that maybe.just maybe.the watch tower bible & tract society, inc. has gone apostate and is guiding its flock off a cliff.. first..all the corporations that were formed separating everything in the eary 2000s.
what is the real reason for doing that?.
second..their association with the united nations.. third.their changes on major doctrines.. fourth.the pedophile issue and subsequent cover-up.
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My Struggle
Elaborate yknot.. What do you mean by "fleeing Jerusalem" and in whose conversations, JWD or JWs? "Get out of Her, My People" is a phrase that means (according to JWs) "get out of false religion....period." I am sure that this is what yknot means... The basic story that I was pounded with growing up was this, in 66 C.E. people of Jerusalem knew that when the armies surrounded their town that they had to leave because they were about to be attacked. Well, it was many years and nothing had happened, so some lost heart and went back to the city, thinking that they were wrong to leave or that the warning was wrong. After four years many had gone back to the city and it was attacked and all those that went back were killed and those that were faithful by staying away survived. This was a scare tactic that stuck out very strong to me...I did not want to question the timing of Armageddon or lose faith. Here is the Jan. 15th 2007 Watchtower... 13 It was imperative that first-century Christians keep their sense of urgency. They needed to take immediate action to flee Jerusalem when they saw that city "surrounded by encamped armies." (Luke 21:20, 21) That happened in the year 66 C.E. Notice how Jesus highlighted the need for urgency on the part of Christians back then: "Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment." (Matthew 24:17, 18) In view of the fact that history shows that Jerusalem survived for four more years, why did Christians need to heed Jesus' words so urgently in 66 C.E.?
14 While it is true that the Roman army did not destroy Jerusalem until 70 C.E., the intervening years were not trouble free. Far from it! Those years were filled with violence and bloodshed. One historian describes the situation in Jerusalem during that time as "a fearfully bloody civil war, accompanied by acts of horrid cruelty." Young men were recruited to strengthen the fortifications, to take up weapons, and to serve in the military. They underwent daily military exercises. Those who were not in favor of extreme measures were viewed as traitors. If Christians had lingered in the city, they would have found themselves in an extremely dangerous position. — Matthew 26:52; Mark 12:17.
15 It should be noted that Jesus said that "those in Judea," not just Jerusalem, were to start fleeing. This was important because within a few months of their withdrawal from Jerusalem, the Roman troops once again renewed their war operations. First, Galilee was subdued in 67 C.E., and then Judaea was systematically conquered the following year. This resulted in great misery throughout the countryside. It also became increasingly difficult for any Jew to escape from Jerusalem itself. The city gates were guarded, and any trying to escape were assumed to be deserting to the Romans.
16 With all these factors in mind, we can understand why Jesus emphasized the urgency of the situation. Christians had to be willing to make sacrifices, not allowing themselves to become sidetracked by material possessions. They had to be willing to "say good-bye to all [their] belongings" in order to obey Jesus' warning. (Luke 14:33) Those who promptly obeyed and fled to the other side of the Jordan were saved. -
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Newly baptized JWs = strict, "old" JWs = not so much?
by Awakened07 inyes - it's one of my flashes of memories again:.
i remember how when someone new and really eager and zealous came along, at some point in the conversation (or later) it would be brought up how these new jws (newly baptized) were so "square" (in my language), meaning they were so strict, by-the-book, rigid.
whereas those who had been in longer were more "round", as in more relaxed, not so bothered by the "details"... i remember joking about how newly baptized people should have a year or two of "quarantine" from the field ministry, because they were being too assertive.. now that i remember it so many years later, it's actually rather interesting.
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My Struggle
This is right in line with what I saw. My dad, and former PO, would be very very much like the more relaxed type...just waiting on Jehovah to sort things out.
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Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to start over?
by DT in"and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
" -matthew 24:14 what is the good news?
i used to think that it was that jesus became king in 1914 and that he would destroy this system before the generation that saw 1914 passed away.
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My Struggle
I made this post a few days ago...
Over the past month I have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on JW. The point was to have someone there to teach the members JW doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them. At the end of the series I gave the members the outline below. It is intended to serve as a guideline for them when JW come to the door. It is centered around three scriptures (Matt. 24:14; Colossians 1:13,14; & Luke 24:47) to create a skeleton of the Christian gospel. I wanted to get some opinions on the outline. Keep in mind that it is not practical for the discussion to be too long, because I waned something of reasonable length that could be used in one setting. Critique away……
"Preaching the gospel to Jehovah’s Witnesses"
1. You believe that Jesus commissioned you at Matt. 24:14 to "preach this good news of the kingdom"?
-The answer will be ‘yes’.
-Matt 24:14 reads, " 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." *
- The New World Translation uses "good news" in place of "gospel". This is not a significant change because they mean the same thing, but it is something to be aware of.
2. What do you believe that "the good news of the kingdom is"?
-JW doctrine teaches them that this is Christ rulership in heaven, but only since the year 1914. Here is their doctrine:**
***w5510/15p.623TheTriumphantMessageof"TheKingdom"***Consequently the kingdom about which this good news would be preached is the kingdom with Jesus Christ present in it in power, on his throne of active rulership. The Kingdom is, not one yet to be set up, but one now established….God’s scheduled time to establish that heavenly kingdom with his Son on the throne was at the end of the "appointed times of the nations," or 2,520 years from when the kingdom of Jerusalem in the land of Judah was desolated in early autumn or in the seventh Jewish month of the year 607 B.C. Those seven "appointed times of the nations" ended in the early autumn of 1914, about October 1. Before then the "good news" of the established kingdom could not be preached.
-With the J.W. (Jehovah’s Witnesses) that may come to your door there is great variance in how well educated they are in the doctrine of the JW church. They may be well versed or they may not even be able to answer questions about core doctrines, like the one questioned here, as they may have not have been a JW long before they happened to arrive at your door. So, always be prepared for a blank stare or some ‘made up’ answer that is not in line with official JW doctrine. However, I will always give you the official JW church doctrine w/ references so they can look it up for themselves if any confusion occurs.
3. Here I would agree with the JW that Jesus is now in power in heaven, and would tell them that all Christians would agree on the truth of Matt.28:18. I would ask to look at that scripture in their bible, which reads… . 18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (emphasis added)
4. After reading the scripture I would then ask, "If Jesus said ‘all authority has been given’ then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?" If his authority was to be given to Jesus in 1914, then why did the scripture not say ‘all authority will be given’?
- There is no official church doctrine on why the scripture is worded the way it is, so the response will be widely varied.
- Try to keep them on task by reminding them that their own publication (quoted above in point number two) says that ‘the kingdom’ in Matt. 24:14 is a heavenly one with Christ ruling, which if true, according to Matt. 28:18, means that he has been ruling since the time he spoke those words.
5. Ask them to further read about Jesus kingdom in Colossians 1:13, 14. It reads " 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. " (emphasis added)
-Explain to them how this scripture allows us to enter the "kingdom of the Son" (which would be Christ ruling the kingdom). That by his ransom it forgave our sins, delivered us from darkness, and transferred us into the kingdom. In fact this is the same way the JW publications view the matter…
***w783/1p.18OurIncomingWorldGovernment—God’sKingdom***12 In this way the first-century believers in the "good news" were brought into a realm of light. But with what was their enlightened condition connected? It was connected with a kingdom. When God "delivered [them] from the authority of the darkness," he at the same time "transferred [them] into the kingdom of the Son of his love." (Col. 1:13) That Son is Jesus Christ.
- In 1914 they believe that Jesus began was given authority in heaven and thus began rulership over the world in that year. The following is the JW’s explanation of how Colossians 1:13, 14 could be true, about being transferred into the kingdom, when it supposedly was not set up until 1914.
-They believe that Jesus’ kingdom at that time was only over ‘spiritual Israelites’ (which is another name for the 144,000 going to heaven) and they were ‘no part of the world’ so, he was not ruling over the world. (Note: the logic of this is contained over several paragraphs in the same article of the 78 Watchtower) So, if he was not really ruling over the world, then he could begin really ruling in 1914.
-Remember that they believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven, and that this Colossians 1:13 is applying only to the 144,000. They believe that they are part of the ‘great crowd’ which does not have a heavenly hope; rather they have a hope to live on earth forever once it is restored to a paradise.
- If the distinction between the 144,000 and great crowd becomes and issue it will detract from the purpose of this outline and basic gospel. It is something of great importance that needs to be discussed, but only at a future date.
- Their attention again needs to be brought back to the points of Matt. 28:18; notating the way Jesus spoke shows that he already had authority when he spoke those words at Matt 28:18.
- Colossians 1:13 needs repeating at this point, so read it again.
6. Now taking in Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 a clear message begins to come together, what do you see that message to be?
-Hopefully they will be able to see what is being said, however it would not surprise me if they could not understand the message that is being portrayed. Remember that it is difficult for the JW to look at this message properly when they have been taught such a different message. Here is the official JW doctrine of the difference between these two scriptures:
***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***16 "Different"—how so? In that it has not been a witness concerning the kingdom mentioned in Colossians 1:13, "the kingdom of the Son of [God’s] love," into which the 144,000 "sealed" spiritual Israelites have been transferred already. (Rev. 7:1-8) What Jehovah’s Witnesses have preached world wide since 1918 is something unique, something that has distinguished these as being the "last days" of the political, social, judicial, militarized system of things. It has been a worldwide witness concerning a royal government now set up in the heavens, empowered to oust the Devil and his demons from the location of its throne.
- If the JW is aware of this doctrine and they are persistent about it, not being willing to see that these scriptures fit together, go back to these scriptures and read them again. After reading these scriptures show them that there is no difference in the language used, that there is no indication that there are two different kingdoms with two different classes of people. If they claim otherwise, have them show where in these two scriptures a difference is indicated.
-The point that needs to be hammered to the JW is that when Jesus commissioned the ‘good news of the kingdom to be preached’ he wanted this message spread: The good news to all is that I have rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place in my kingdom.
7. Did you know that Jesus wanted a corresponding message to be preached to all nations, commissioned at Luke 24:47?
- It reads, " In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem, you are to be witnesses of these things. "
-This scripture is used very little in JW publications and to my knowledge never in conjunction with Matt. 24:14 or Colossians 1:13, so it would not be surprising for them to be unfamiliar with this scripture.
8. Do you see how Luke 24:47 fits in with what has been discussed about Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13?
- Earlier we showed how using Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 gave this message: The good news to all is that Jesus has rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place Jesus’ kingdom.
- Point out to them that Luke 24:47 completes the basic message of ‘the good news’. Luke 24:14 shows how we have been rescued from darkness and redeemed, showing that it was by Jesus suffering and subsequent rise from the dead.
- In the end the good news is one message of Jesus saving us all, which allows us into his kingdom.
- Some may still contend that there are two different messages being presented in Matt. 24:14 and Luke 24:47. There one possible objection that has not been discussed thus far, and it is not one presented in any JW publications, but is still a possible objection. This would be an argument about the wording in Luke 24:47, saying that the message ‘would be’ preached in all nations. They may contend that Jesus was saying that this preaching would be completed in the first century. However there are some points show them if they use this logic, and are as follows:
- If Jesus was saying that this ‘would be’ completed in the first century. This would have been a hard-to-impossible task, further we know that no message about Jesus was completed in the first century. It took many centuries for this message to be spread to all nations.
- Also, it should be pointed out to the JW that this is a unique translation of this scripture. Most translations have Luke 24:47 translated that the message ‘should be’ preached in all nations. This obviously leaves no room for misinterpretation that we should be preaching a message of salvation.
9. At this point the JW is left with two distinct options about Luke 24:47 and Matt. 24:14. Either they are one message, or the JW is not following Jesus command at Luke 24:47.
-If it is one message, then they are partially preaching this message. The parts they have wrong are that Jesus kingdom was set up in 1914 and that we do not have to be saved by Jesus to allow us into his kingdom. (I have not been able to go into the latter point as much as I would have liked. However, if they believe that Jesus is ruling now and they are not saved but are still part of his kingdom, then they obviously do not believe that salvation is necessary to be part of his kingdom. They believe that if they are not part of the 144,000 they are in the ‘great crowd’ and will be going to paradise, instead of heaven like the 144,000. It is only when they get to paradise that they believe they have salvation. On the other hand, they believe that the 144,000 have salvation currently while on earth before they go to heaven. )
- If they still contend that there are two separate messages, then they are not preaching the message at Luke 24:47. The JW publications certainly do not put any emphases on this scripture or following its command.
10. Conclusion and notes to the Christian.
-This topic could lead to several other discussions, which would be helpful to talk about at a later date. It may be hard to keep things on track, as there is such a difference in beliefs, but it is necessary for this gospel to be preached to the JW. It is paramount to stay on track with this gospel and little effect will be gained by jumping off the topic to explore other doctrinal differences. After this message is given there is a wealth of other topics that could and should be discussed with the JW.
-Remember that they are coming to your do to preach to you, not for you to preach to them. Not only this, but they also are taught to not listen to other religious thinking. There are several scriptures that should be shown if they are resistant simply because ‘it is not what they have been taught’.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine"
2 Corinthians 13:5 "
Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith"Acts 17:10-12 "
10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be·roe´a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. 12"-What I intended to do here was set a basic foundation of the JW understanding of the gospel/good news and provide a way for the true gospel to be preached to them. This is something that Christian should be able to use the first time they encounter a JW and be able to discuss in one session.
- This is certainly not all encompassing and there are several other notable scriptures that talk about the gospel, namely Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:18, Eph 1:13, 2 Tim. 1:10, and many others. As you can see from the length and depth of this outline that if many other scripture would have been included the length of this would have been far too long for what it was intended.
- If there are any questions about anything discussed or you ever need help in relating to JW, please feel free to contact me at [email protected]
* All quotations of scripture come from the New World Translation unless otherwise specified.
** All references come directly form JW literature and are unaltered. They are also referenced, in the style JW use, at the heading of the JW article. Here is an example and break down of how they are used:
***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***
The first part, w, is the publication, which in this case is the Watchtower. The second part, 80, is the year published, 1980. The third part, 10/1, is the month and day published. The fourth part, p.28, is the page the quote can be found. The finial part, After These "Last Days" God’s Messianic Kingdom! , is the title of the article.
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the anointed
by My Struggle ini know about the 'new light' that is about to come out, and i fully realize how this will greatly extend the 'last days'.
what i am wondering is, where is it stated that the anointing process is still taking place or has taken place in the past few years?
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My Struggle
I know about the 'new light' that is about to come out, and I fully realize how this will greatly extend the 'last days'. What I am wondering is, where is it stated that the anointing process is still taking place or has taken place in the past few years?
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The Gospel and JW
by My Struggle inover the past month i have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on jw.
the point was to have someone there to teach the members jw doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them.
4. after reading the scripture i would then ask, "if jesus said all authority has been given then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?
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My Struggle
Thanks for the suggestions, they were helpful. I think that I am going to restructure it. I want it to be more clear that no one is going to change a JW beliefs at one setting. I made this clear to the church that I spoke at, but apparently I did not do that good of a job expressing that in the outline. I also felt that the outline was missing something in its approach, and I really like the approach of having them 'teach' their JW beliefs first and then play off that. Like Drew said, it will take the JW off the defensive. I have used that approach in the past, but I am not sure why I did not use it on this outline.
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The Gospel and JW
by My Struggle inover the past month i have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on jw.
the point was to have someone there to teach the members jw doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them.
4. after reading the scripture i would then ask, "if jesus said all authority has been given then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?
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My Struggle
Over the past month I have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on JW. The point was to have someone there to teach the members JW doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them. At the end of the series I gave the members the outline below. It is intended to serve as a guideline for them when JW come to the door. It is centered around three scriptures (Matt. 24:14; Colossians 1:13,14; & Luke 24:47) to create a skeleton of the Christian gospel. I wanted to get some opinions on the outline. Keep in mind that it is not practical for the discussion to be too long, because I waned something of reasonable length that could be used in one setting. Critique away……
"Preaching the gospel to Jehovah’s Witnesses"
1. You believe that Jesus commissioned you at Matt. 24:14 to "preach this good news of the kingdom"?
-The answer will be ‘yes’.
-Matt 24:14 reads, " 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." *
- The New World Translation uses "good news" in place of "gospel". This is not a significant change because they mean the same thing, but it is something to be aware of.
2. What do you believe that "the good news of the kingdom is"?
-JW doctrine teaches them that this is Christ rulership in heaven, but only since the year 1914. Here is their doctrine:**
***w5510/15p.623TheTriumphantMessageof"TheKingdom"***Consequently the kingdom about which this good news would be preached is the kingdom with Jesus Christ present in it in power, on his throne of active rulership. The Kingdom is, not one yet to be set up, but one now established….God’s scheduled time to establish that heavenly kingdom with his Son on the throne was at the end of the "appointed times of the nations," or 2,520 years from when the kingdom of Jerusalem in the land of Judah was desolated in early autumn or in the seventh Jewish month of the year 607 B.C. Those seven "appointed times of the nations" ended in the early autumn of 1914, about October 1. Before then the "good news" of the established kingdom could not be preached.
-With the J.W. (Jehovah’s Witnesses) that may come to your door there is great variance in how well educated they are in the doctrine of the JW church. They may be well versed or they may not even be able to answer questions about core doctrines, like the one questioned here, as they may have not have been a JW long before they happened to arrive at your door. So, always be prepared for a blank stare or some ‘made up’ answer that is not in line with official JW doctrine. However, I will always give you the official JW church doctrine w/ references so they can look it up for themselves if any confusion occurs.
3. Here I would agree with the JW that Jesus is now in power in heaven, and would tell them that all Christians would agree on the truth of Matt.28:18. I would ask to look at that scripture in their bible, which reads… . 18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (emphasis added)
4. After reading the scripture I would then ask, "If Jesus said ‘all authority has been given’ then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?" If his authority was to be given to Jesus in 1914, then why did the scripture not say ‘all authority will be given’?
- There is no official church doctrine on why the scripture is worded the way it is, so the response will be widely varied.
- Try to keep them on task by reminding them that their own publication (quoted above in point number two) says that ‘the kingdom’ in Matt. 24:14 is a heavenly one with Christ ruling, which if true, according to Matt. 28:18, means that he has been ruling since the time he spoke those words.
5. Ask them to further read about Jesus kingdom in Colossians 1:13, 14. It reads " 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. " (emphasis added)
-Explain to them how this scripture allows us to enter the "kingdom of the Son" (which would be Christ ruling the kingdom). That by his ransom it forgave our sins, delivered us from darkness, and transferred us into the kingdom. In fact this is the same way the JW publications view the matter…
***w783/1p.18OurIncomingWorldGovernment—God’sKingdom***12 In this way the first-century believers in the "good news" were brought into a realm of light. But with what was their enlightened condition connected? It was connected with a kingdom. When God "delivered [them] from the authority of the darkness," he at the same time "transferred [them] into the kingdom of the Son of his love." (Col. 1:13) That Son is Jesus Christ.
- In 1914 they believe that Jesus began was given authority in heaven and thus began rulership over the world in that year. The following is the JW’s explanation of how Colossians 1:13, 14 could be true, about being transferred into the kingdom, when it supposedly was not set up until 1914.
-They believe that Jesus’ kingdom at that time was only over ‘spiritual Israelites’ (which is another name for the 144,000 going to heaven) and they were ‘no part of the world’ so, he was not ruling over the world. (Note: the logic of this is contained over several paragraphs in the same article of the 78 Watchtower) So, if he was not really ruling over the world, then he could begin really ruling in 1914.
-Remember that they believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven, and that this Colossians 1:13 is applying only to the 144,000. They believe that they are part of the ‘great crowd’ which does not have a heavenly hope; rather they have a hope to live on earth forever once it is restored to a paradise.
- If the distinction between the 144,000 and great crowd becomes and issue it will detract from the purpose of this outline and basic gospel. It is something of great importance that needs to be discussed, but only at a future date.
- Their attention again needs to be brought back to the points of Matt. 28:18; notating the way Jesus spoke shows that he already had authority when he spoke those words at Matt 28:18.
- Colossians 1:13 needs repeating at this point, so read it again.
6. Now taking in Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 a clear message begins to come together, what do you see that message to be?
-Hopefully they will be able to see what is being said, however it would not surprise me if they could not understand the message that is being portrayed. Remember that it is difficult for the JW to look at this message properly when they have been taught such a different message. Here is the official JW doctrine of the difference between these two scriptures:
***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***16 "Different"—how so? In that it has not been a witness concerning the kingdom mentioned in Colossians 1:13, "the kingdom of the Son of [God’s] love," into which the 144,000 "sealed" spiritual Israelites have been transferred already. (Rev. 7:1-8) What Jehovah’s Witnesses have preached world wide since 1918 is something unique, something that has distinguished these as being the "last days" of the political, social, judicial, militarized system of things. It has been a worldwide witness concerning a royal government now set up in the heavens, empowered to oust the Devil and his demons from the location of its throne.
- If the JW is aware of this doctrine and they are persistent about it, not being willing to see that these scriptures fit together, go back to these scriptures and read them again. After reading these scriptures show them that there is no difference in the language used, that there is no indication that there are two different kingdoms with two different classes of people. If they claim otherwise, have them show where in these two scriptures a difference is indicated.
-The point that needs to be hammered to the JW is that when Jesus commissioned the ‘good news of the kingdom to be preached’ he wanted this message spread: The good news to all is that I have rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place in my kingdom.
7. Did you know that Jesus wanted a corresponding message to be preached to all nations, commissioned at Luke 24:47?
- It reads, " In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem, you are to be witnesses of these things. "
-This scripture is used very little in JW publications and to my knowledge never in conjunction with Matt. 24:14 or Colossians 1:13, so it would not be surprising for them to be unfamiliar with this scripture.
8. Do you see how Luke 24:47 fits in with what has been discussed about Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13?
- Earlier we showed how using Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 gave this message: The good news to all is that Jesus has rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place Jesus’ kingdom.
- Point out to them that Luke 24:47 completes the basic message of ‘the good news’. Luke 24:14 shows how we have been rescued from darkness and redeemed, showing that it was by Jesus suffering and subsequent rise from the dead.
- In the end the good news is one message of Jesus saving us all, which allows us into his kingdom.
- Some may still contend that there are two different messages being presented in Matt. 24:14 and Luke 24:47. There one possible objection that has not been discussed thus far, and it is not one presented in any JW publications, but is still a possible objection. This would be an argument about the wording in Luke 24:47, saying that the message ‘would be’ preached in all nations. They may contend that Jesus was saying that this preaching would be completed in the first century. However there are some points show them if they use this logic, and are as follows:
- If Jesus was saying that this ‘would be’ completed in the first century. This would have been a hard-to-impossible task, further we know that no message about Jesus was completed in the first century. It took many centuries for this message to be spread to all nations.
- Also, it should be pointed out to the JW that this is a unique translation of this scripture. Most translations have Luke 24:47 translated that the message ‘should be’ preached in all nations. This obviously leaves no room for misinterpretation that we should be preaching a message of salvation.
9. At this point the JW is left with two distinct options about Luke 24:47 and Matt. 24:14. Either they are one message, or the JW is not following Jesus command at Luke 24:47.
-If it is one message, then they are partially preaching this message. The parts they have wrong are that Jesus kingdom was set up in 1914 and that we do not have to be saved by Jesus to allow us into his kingdom. (I have not been able to go into the latter point as much as I would have liked. However, if they believe that Jesus is ruling now and they are not saved but are still part of his kingdom, then they obviously do not believe that salvation is necessary to be part of his kingdom. They believe that if they are not part of the 144,000 they are in the ‘great crowd’ and will be going to paradise, instead of heaven like the 144,000. It is only when they get to paradise that they believe they have salvation. On the other hand, they believe that the 144,000 have salvation currently while on earth before they go to heaven. )
- If they still contend that there are two separate messages, then they are not preaching the message at Luke 24:47. The JW publications certainly do not put any emphases on this scripture or following its command.
10. Conclusion and notes to the Christian.
-This topic could lead to several other discussions, which would be helpful to talk about at a later date. It may be hard to keep things on track, as there is such a difference in beliefs, but it is necessary for this gospel to be preached to the JW. It is paramount to stay on track with this gospel and little effect will be gained by jumping off the topic to explore other doctrinal differences. After this message is given there is a wealth of other topics that could and should be discussed with the JW.
-Remember that they are coming to your do to preach to you, not for you to preach to them. Not only this, but they also are taught to not listen to other religious thinking. There are several scriptures that should be shown if they are resistant simply because ‘it is not what they have been taught’.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine"
2 Corinthians 13:5 "
Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith"Acts 17:10-12 "
10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be·roe´a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. 12"-What I intended to do here was set a basic foundation of the JW understanding of the gospel/good news and provide a way for the true gospel to be preached to them. This is something that Christian should be able to use the first time they encounter a JW and be able to discuss in one session.
- This is certainly not all encompassing and there are several other notable scriptures that talk about the gospel, namely Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:18, Eph 1:13, 2 Tim. 1:10, and many others. As you can see from the length and depth of this outline that if many other scripture would have been included the length of this would have been far too long for what it was intended.
- If there are any questions about anything discussed or you ever need help in relating to JW, please feel free to contact me at [email protected]
* All quotations of scripture come from the New World Translation unless otherwise specified.
** All references come directly form JW literature and are unaltered. They are also referenced, in the style JW use, at the heading of the JW article. Here is an example and break down of how they are used:
***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***
The first part, w, is the publication, which in this case is the Watchtower. The second part, 80, is the year published, 1980. The third part, 10/1, is the month and day published. The fourth part, p.28, is the page the quote can be found. The finial part, After These "Last Days" God’s Messianic Kingdom! , is the title of the article.
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Donations for literature I would spend at Mc Donald's!!! Sorry!!!
by Witness 007 inin my last 2 years in field service in australia tax laws meant we could no longer offer publications for money or directly ask for a donation.
if the householder asks, we would explain our voluntry work was paid for by donations.
i was suprised how many people would give you $10 or $20 dollars thinking it's going to some good cause....however, i would go and buy some lunch at mc donald's.
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My Struggle
Well...that money went to food that eventually became crap...and if given to WTBTS it would have had the same end result. No harm done.